Pausing TRT to reverse testicular atrophy

[Shaunnn]

Hi Everyone,

I was on TRT for about two and a half years at 20mg per day and I just stopped injections six weeks ago. I did taper down to 20mg eod to make the transition a little smoother. I took 2000iu HCG every other day for twenty days, then dropped it to 500iu three times a week. I also took 100mg of Clomiphene for twenty days, then dropping it to 50mgs per day.

I did this because I was tired of all the issues associated with atropied testicles. I tried adding HGC with my testosterone for a few months but it didn't solve the problem. I figured I'd stop and start again with HCG. The boys are getting back to normal size as natural testosterone is working again. I didn't experience any withdrawal without the injections but I have lost a bit of size and I'm still lifing the same weight but it takes a little more effort and I feel it more at workouts end.

I am wondering about two things...
How long should I wait before going back to 20mgs of daily testosterone with my 500iu of HCG three times a week and will it be enough to prevent them from shrinking again?
If I stayed on HCG three times a week and swapped the Clomiphene for Enclomiphene at 25 or 50mg per day, would that be comparable to my 140mg of testosterone per week. How big of a difference do you think it may be from TRT?

Anyone's suggestions or experiences are welcomed.

Thanks

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I don't think there is any precise/certain answer to your questions, and experimentation is really the only way to find out, however... several things. How do you feel perform overall? If you're in a good place then staying there with minor adjustments seems like the low risk way to go (minor adjustments might be using a low dose of oxandrolone PWO several times per week if you really need it.) Your clomid dose would for me be a monster dose, and if you can continue forward with just HCG that might be a good approach. If you keep the HCG as is I would expect your size to be maintained if you go with TRT at 20mg every other day, at least that has been my experience. Generally people either use Clomid/enclomiphene or HCG but if it works for you, you would need to do labs to see where your T production sits, although again, if you can get by with a low dose of C/E or get rid of it altogether, that is likely the most maintainable approach since HCG has a much shorter half-life and hence should give a much more stable experience. Labs would not over-ride symptoms so IME getting to good steady and staying there with minor variation is almost always the best approach.

 

[Vince]

Hi Everyone,

I was on TRT for about two and a half years at 20mg per day and I just stopped injections six weeks ago. I did taper down to 20mg eod to make the transition a little smoother. I took 2000iu HCG every other day for twenty days, then dropped it to 500iu three times a week. I also took 100mg of Clomiphene for twenty days, then dropping it to 50mgs per day.

I did this because I was tired of all the issues associated with atropied testicles. I tried adding HGC with my testosterone for a few months but it didn't solve the problem. I figured I'd stop and start again with HCG. The boys are getting back to normal size as natural testosterone is working again. I didn't experience any withdrawal without the injections but I have lost a bit of size and I'm still lifing the same weight but it takes a little more effort and I feel it more at workouts end.

I am wondering about two things...
How long should I wait before going back to 20mgs of daily testosterone with my 500iu of HCG three times a week and will it be enough to prevent them from shrinking again?
If I stayed on HCG three times a week and swapped the Clomiphene for Enclomiphene at 25 or 50mg per day, would that be comparable to my 140mg of testosterone per week. How big of a difference do you think it may be from TRT?

Anyone's suggestions or experiences are welcomed.

Thanks

I do daily injections. Every third day I add 500 IU of HCG. I combine both in the same syringe, like Nelson does. It keeps my testicles full. I see no reason why it shouldn't work for you too.

 

[Shaunnn]

I don't think there is any precise/certain answer to your questions, and experimentation is really the only way to find out, however... several things. How do you feel perform overall? If you're in a good place then staying there with minor adjustments seems like the low risk way to go (minor adjustments might be using a low dose of oxandrolone PWO several times per week if you really need it.) Your clomid dose would for me be a monster dose, and if you can continue forward with just HCG that might be a good approach. If you keep the HCG as is I would expect your size to be maintained if you go with TRT at 20mg every other day, at least that has been my experience. Generally people either use Clomid/enclomiphene or HCG but if it works for you, you would need to do labs to see where your T production sits, although again, if you can get by with a low dose of C/E or get rid of it altogether, that is likely the most maintainable approach since HCG has a much shorter half-life and hence should give a much more stable experience. Labs would not over-ride symptoms so IME getting to good steady and staying there with minor variation is almost always the best approach.

I don't think there is any precise/certain answer to your questions, and experimentation is really the only way to find out, however... several things. How do you feel perform overall? If you're in a good place then staying there with minor adjustments seems like the low risk way to go (minor adjustments might be using a low dose of oxandrolone PWO several times per week if you really need it.) Your clomid dose would for me be a monster dose, and if you can continue forward with just HCG that might be a good approach. If you keep the HCG as is I would expect your size to be maintained if you go with TRT at 20mg every other day, at least that has been my experience. Generally people either use Clomid/enclomiphene or HCG but if it works for you, you would need to do labs to see where your T production sits, although again, if you can get by with a low dose of C/E or get rid of it altogether, that is likely the most maintainable approach since HCG has a much shorter half-life and hence should give a much more stable experience. Labs would not over-ride symptoms so IME getting to good steady and staying there with minor variation is almost always the best approach.

The Oxandrolone option was one I thought of but every time I've ordered Anavar, it turns out to be Winstrol and sometimes Dianabol. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask but do you know where i can get legit Anavar? Thats the problem.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

The Oxandrolone option was one I thought of but every time I've ordered Anavar, it turns out to be Winstrol and sometimes Dianabol. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask but do you know where i can get legit Anavar? Thats the problem.

If you're getting your TRT through a clinic in the US, Oxandrolone is available by prescription through compounding pharmacies. I'm not up on which other sources are consistently legit but there are sites with users who report back with lab tests (women are especially diligent on that topic) so perhaps you can find a source there or someone else here will chime in. Before you get too fixated on that, I would look at your training and consider swapping intensity for more low-rep sets at near-maximal weights. That alone massively helped my recovery and I quickly surpassed the weights I had previously been doing with that approach before adding any anabolics.

 

[madman]

Hi Everyone,

I was on TRT for about two and a half years at 20mg per day and I just stopped injections six weeks ago. I did taper down to 20mg eod to make the transition a little smoother. I took 2000iu HCG every other day for twenty days, then dropped it to 500iu three times a week. I also took 100mg of Clomiphene for twenty days, then dropping it to 50mgs per day.

I did this because I was tired of all the issues associated with atropied testicles. I tried adding HGC with my testosterone for a few months but it didn't solve the problem. I figured I'd stop and start again with HCG. The boys are getting back to normal size as natural testosterone is working again. I didn't experience any withdrawal without the injections but I have lost a bit of size and I'm still lifing the same weight but it takes a little more effort and I feel it more at workouts end.

I am wondering about two things...
How long should I wait before going back to 20mgs of daily testosterone with my 500iu of HCG three times a week and will it be enough to prevent them from shrinking again?
If I stayed on HCG three times a week and swapped the Clomiphene for Enclomiphene at 25 or 50mg per day, would that be comparable to my 140mg of testosterone per week. How big of a difference do you think it may be from TRT?

Anyone's suggestions or experiences are welcomed.

Thanks

Stopping T therapy whether cold turkey or using PCT will still result in your natty endogenous T levels eventually returning back to baseline which for the majority would be subpar as they were already in a hypogonadal state.

There is no way to avoid the crash even when using a PCT as it will just soften the blow and speed up the recovery process bringing the HPG-axis online again.

Seeing as you were on therapy for 2.5 years especially without using hCG throughout to maintain testicular size it is going to take longer to see an increase in testicular volume even when using hCG.

When first starting TTh in order to minimize/prevent testicular atrophy 1500 IU once weekly would suffice or better yet 500 IU 2-3 X/weekly.

The sweet spot would most likely be 250-500 IU 2-3X weekly in order to stimulate maximum ITT (intratesticular testosterone) production which should have a strong impact on minimizing/preventing testicular atrophy and maintaining fertility.

In some cases especially when it comes to fertility the addition of FSH may be needed

If you have been on TTh solo for a long time (years) then you will most likely need much higher doses then 1500 IU once weekly or 500 IU 2-3X weekly as your Leydig cells will have been dormant for so long and they are more prone to being what we call stubborn to the LH signal.

The hCG mimics LH and will keep the Leydig cells active (producing some degree of ITT).

What is critical here is making sure the testes are responsive to the LH stimulation as in many cases when on TTh or abusing T/AAS if no hCG was used during this time then the Leydig cells become dormant and the seminiferous tubules shrink which results in testicular atrophy due to shutdown of the hpta and LH/FSH/ITT and sperm production. This results in the Leydig cells no longer producing endogenous testosterone and the Sertoli/germ cells no longer producing sperm.

Seminiferous tubules/germ cells.

* Since 80% of testicular volume consists of germinal epithelium and seminiferous tubules, a reduction in these cells is usually manifested by testicular atrophy and this reflects the loss of both spermatogenesis and Leydig cell function

*Spermatogenesis is largely dependent on the action of FSH on Sertoli cells coupled with high intra-testicular testosterone concentrations. Within the seminiferous tubules, only Sertoli cells possess receptors for both FSH and testosterone. Numerous signaling pathways are activated when FSH binds to FSH receptors on these cells. It acts synergistically with testosterone to increase fertility and the efficiency of spermatogenesis


Also keep in mind men with smaller testes at baseline or men who have been on therapy for years may not respond as well to hCG solo especially low doses and in many cases the addition of FSH would be needed especially if fertility was the goal here.

Even then hCG with the addition of FSH will be more effective for increasing testicular volume as FSH directly stimulates the Sertoli/germ cells which are responsible for sperm production let maintaining the structure, thickness and density of the seminiferous tubules.

Again 80% of testicular volume is made up of germinal epithelium and seminiferous tubules.

I would just hop back on T and use hCG + FSH if your goal is to try and minimize/prevent testicular atrophy.

Give it 2-3 months.

For most hCG should suffice but some men will need FSH especially men who had smaller testes at baseline.

Keep in mind some men who. abuse T/AAS especially high doses for years can permanently end up with smaller testes when they come off and no amount of hCG or FSH will bring them back to natty baseline.

Post in thread 'Fertility maintenance or restoration in men before, during, and after TRT or AAS'

Sep 25, 2022

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