Sleeping much better on Kyzatrex vs injections

[Vman]

I had been on daily subq injections of T cyp for 7 years. During the entire time, my sleep quality was pretty poor. It would take 30-60 minutes for me to fall asleep. I would wake 1-3 times each night to go to the bathroom (1 was a good night, 3 a bad night). I would average a good 3-4 hour block of sleep plus 1-3 hours of fragmented sleep each night. On a bad night, I'd get 3+1 hours of sleep. On a great night, I'd get 4+3 hours of sleep. On average I would get 3+2.5 hours of sleep.

I tried melatonin, magnesium, glycinate and some other supplements that seemed to have no effect. I tried benadryl as well. The only thing that consistently worked was lorazepam, but that's a benzo so I only used it when I traveled. It gave me a solid 5 hour chunk of sleep every time I used it.

Overall, I still felt very functional. I was able to workout and I would say I felt great with plenty of energy. I thought the sleep quality was just a result of getting older.

Six weeks ago, I decided to try Kyzatrex in the hopes that it would resolve my elevated hematocrit/donating blood every 2 months/super low ferritin cycle. I won't know if Kyzatrex resolves that for many months, but one thing I've definitely noticed is the massive improvement in the quality of my sleep!

I now fall asleep in less than 15 minutes. I stay asleep all night almost every night. I average 7 hours of sleep each night. In the last 3 weeks, I've gotten up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night only 2 times and I was back asleep almost instantly.

The dramatic improvement in the quality of my sleep was completely unexpected so I thought I'd share my experience.

 

[radman]

Great post! I've had similar issues since starting TRT (though some milder sleep issues prior). I've also not been sure if it was just age (I'm 62).
I have no problem with falling asleep (sleep latency), but I have consistently fragmented sleep, where I go to bed around 10 pm, but repeatedly wake up and fall back every hour or 2, from around 1-2 am until I finally get up usually around 530 am.
Generally about 5.5 hours of real sleep per night, in bed around 7.5 hours.
I also have felt fine despite the poor sleep quality. Not generally sleepy during the day. But given all the emphasis on sleep quality that most experts talk about, I've been concerned and trying to get more restful sleep.
I've tried doxepin and Lunesta without improvement. Benadryl tends to work but they say if you keep taking it the effect wears off quickly, and it tends to give poor sleep architecture (eg. REM, deep sleep, etc). I'm trying to get approved for Quviviq (a newer DORA drug). These medications are specifically helpful for fragmented sleep without latency problems, so ideal for my symptoms. Despite the doc agreeing, the insurance company doesn't want to cover it so working on that. Nice to know that a switch to Kyzatrex could be a solution. Presumably on the basis of decreased spikes/troughs.

 

[Willyt]

Six weeks ago, I decided to try Kyzatrex in the hopes that it would resolve my elevated hematocrit/donating blood every 2 months/super low ferritin cycle. I won't know if Kyzatrex resolves that for many months, but one thing I've definitely noticed is the massive improvement in the quality of my sleep!

I now fall asleep in less than 15 minutes. I stay asleep all night almost every night. I average 7 hours of sleep each night. In the last 3 weeks, I've gotten up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night only 2 times and I was back asleep almost instantly.

The dramatic improvement in the quality of my sleep was completely unexpected so I thought I'd share my experience.

It makes sense since presumably you are dropping into deep trough overnight on oral T versus steady state on daily injections. This is similar to idea behind using faster acting injectables like Propionate or a blend of TE and TP.

What do your TT/FT levels look like on orals versus daily injections?

What I don't understand is why would you have to get up less to take a piss? I wouldn't think that would change.

I too have been tormented by early mornings awakenings, which are most definitely exacerbated by TRT. Having tried everything, recently I began experimenting with Ipamorelin peptide injection at night with some success. Jury is still out though.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

It makes sense since presumably you are dropping into deep trough overnight on oral T versus steady state on daily injections. This is similar to idea behind using faster acting injectables like Propionate or a blend of TE and TP.

What do your TT/FT levels look like on orals versus daily injections?

What I don't understand is why would you have to get up less to take a piss? I wouldn't think that would change.

I too have been tormented by early mornings awakenings, which are most definitely exacerbated by TRT. Having tried everything, recently I began experimenting with Ipamorelin peptide injection at night with some success. Jury is still out though.

Have you tried a moderate amount of late evening carbs or glycine? Awakening can sometimes be due to the body perceiving low blood sugar.

 

[Vman]

It makes sense since presumably you are dropping into deep trough overnight on oral T versus steady state on daily injections. This is similar to idea behind using faster acting injectables like Propionate or a blend of TE and TP.

What do your TT/FT levels look like on orals versus daily injections?

What I don't understand is why would you have to get up less to take a piss? I wouldn't think that would change.

I too have been tormented by early mornings awakenings, which are most definitely exacerbated by TRT. Having tried everything, recently I began experimenting with Ipamorelin peptide injection at night with some success. Jury is still out though.

The deep trough theory is my guess as well. It seems to make the most sense as to why the the big improvement in sleep quality.

I don't have accurate TT/FT levels on orals yet as they were taken while I still had T cyp in my system. The numbers I do have are above top of range by 15% or so at peak 4 hours post lunch dose. These were taken one week after starting Kyzatrex and two weeks after stopping daily injections. I will have updated labs in about two weeks.

As for the getting up to go to the bathroom. My guess is that I don't actually have to go to the bathroom that badly. It's more of a reset button to help me get back to sleep. So if I'm sleeping deeper I don't wake up and if I don't wake up I don't get up and go to the bathroom.

 

[Willyt]

Have you tried a moderate amount of late evening carbs or glycine? Awakening can sometimes be due to the body perceiving low blood sugar.

Funny you should mention this because I recently saw YT video on guy espousing spoonful of honey at the witching hour if you wake up (e.g., 3am). I was skeptical, but have had some success over last several weeks.

It is encouraging because I have tried nearly every supplement, drug and even CPAP with zero long-term success.

 

[Willyt]

I don't have accurate TT/FT levels on orals yet as they were taken while I still had T cyp in my system. The numbers I do have are above top of range by 15% or so at peak 4 hours post lunch dose. These were taken one week after starting Kyzatrex and two weeks after stopping daily injections. I will have updated labs in about two weeks.

As a fellow daily guy, I am curious - what was your daily dose and TT/FT numbers over the years on T cyp?

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Funny you should mention this because I recently saw YT video on guy espousing spoonful of honey at the witching hour if you wake up (e.g., 3am). I was skeptical, but have had some success over last several weeks.

It is encouraging because I have tried nearly every supplement, drug and even CPAP with zero long-term success.

I'm glad you're improving. This was a very well-known issue in the early days of low-carb. Ideally blood sugar levels would stay stable, but if for some reason they don't the late evening bolus helps many people. I remember Buckwheat honey being best of the commonly available honeys for overall health parameters and it's all I've used. Glycine is IIRC one of the most "glycemic" amino acids because it can be converted to sugar faster than the others. Something that suppresses cortisol might also be looking into since IIRC it gets released when the body senses low blood sugar. Some of the XXX sleep products may also be worth a try although if you don't deal with the cortisol rise, nothing is likely to work.

 

[Dexter1001]

I had been on daily subq injections of T cyp for 7 years. During the entire time, my sleep quality was pretty poor. It would take 30-60 minutes for me to fall asleep. I would wake 1-3 times each night to go to the bathroom (1 was a good night, 3 a bad night). I would average a good 3-4 hour block of sleep plus 1-3 hours of fragmented sleep each night. On a bad night, I'd get 3+1 hours of sleep. On a great night, I'd get 4+3 hours of sleep. On average I would get 3+2.5 hours of sleep.

I tried melatonin, magnesium, glycinate and some other supplements that seemed to have no effect. I tried benadryl as well. The only thing that consistently worked was lorazepam, but that's a benzo so I only used it when I traveled. It gave me a solid 5 hour chunk of sleep every time I used it.

Overall, I still felt very functional. I was able to workout and I would say I felt great with plenty of energy. I thought the sleep quality was just a result of getting older.

Six weeks ago, I decided to try Kyzatrex in the hopes that it would resolve my elevated hematocrit/donating blood every 2 months/super low ferritin cycle. I won't know if Kyzatrex resolves that for many months, but one thing I've definitely noticed is the massive improvement in the quality of my sleep!

I now fall asleep in less than 15 minutes. I stay asleep all night almost every night. I average 7 hours of sleep each night. In the last 3 weeks, I've gotten up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night only 2 times and I was back asleep almost instantly.

The dramatic improvement in the quality of my sleep was completely unexpected so I thought I'd share my experience.

That is a massive win! It’s wild how we can convince ourselves that "fragmented sleep" is just part of getting older until a simple switch proves otherwise. Seven years is a long time to be running on fumes.

It makes total sense, though. Kyzatrex follows a much more natural daily rhythm compared to the steady "always-on" nature of Cypionate injections. By mimicking your body’s natural hormonal peaks and valleys, your nervous system is likely finally getting the memo that it’s actually okay to power down at night.

If this also ends up fixing your hematocrit and saving you from those constant blood donations, you’ve basically found the TRT holy grail.

Now that you’re actually getting a full 7 hours, do you feel like a completely different person in the gym?

 

[Willyt]

I'm glad you're improving. This was a very well-known issue in the early days of low-carb. Ideally blood sugar levels would stay stable, but if for some reason they don't the late evening bolus helps many people. I remember Buckwheat honey being best of the commonly available honeys for overall health parameters and it's all I've used. Glycine is IIRC one of the most "glycemic" amino acids because it can be converted to sugar faster than the others. Something that suppresses cortisol might also be looking into since IIRC it gets released when the body senses low blood sugar. Some of the XXX sleep products may also be worth a try although if you don't deal with the cortisol rise, nothing is likely to work.

Interesting about the low carb early days makes sense.
Something I stumbled on recently is cornstarch mixed with water before bedtime. Apparently a well-known solution for people with nocturnal hypoglycemia (non-diabetic). The starch is supposed to release glucose slowly over 5-6 hours. There is a product called Glycosade made of starch designed for especially for this with longer acting duration. The corn starch is much cheaper though.

 

[Vman]

That is a massive win! It’s wild how we can convince ourselves that "fragmented sleep" is just part of getting older until a simple switch proves otherwise. Seven years is a long time to be running on fumes.

It makes total sense, though. Kyzatrex follows a much more natural daily rhythm compared to the steady "always-on" nature of Cypionate injections. By mimicking your body’s natural hormonal peaks and valleys, your nervous system is likely finally getting the memo that it’s actually okay to power down at night.

If this also ends up fixing your hematocrit and saving you from those constant blood donations, you’ve basically found the TRT holy grail.

Now that you’re actually getting a full 7 hours, do you feel like a completely different person in the gym?

It really is a massive win! I'm even getting a full 8 hours sometimes! I can't believe how well I'm sleeping and how much I rationalized poor sleep for 7 years.

It's because I didn't feel too bad with poor sleep. Like I said before, I would say I felt great overall. I just knew I wasn't sleeping well. The only time where it felt awful was on a bad night where I would get 3+1 hours of sleep. But those were maybe 2-3 times a month and you'd be amazed how functional you are on 3+1 hours of sleep. Plus, a bad night was almost always followed by a good night of 4+2-3 hours of sleep.

My gym performance is roughly the same as it was on injections. I do feel slightly more energy in the gym, but I mostly notice the extra energy in other activities. For example, in the morning I just feel way sharper and my vision is better and I feel much more awake throughout the day.

I did try carbs and glycine before bed. I played around with the timing, type and amount and had no success. I eat a high protein, very low carb diet so on the rare nights where I eat too much sugar too close to bedtime it actually keeps me from sleeping.

I'm really hoping the Kyzatrex fixes my hematocrit, blood donation, low ferritin. If it does, I'll be one of "those" people that are on TRT where it's easy and everything's amazing.

 

[Systemlord]

For me balancing my ferritin levels is key to optimizing response to treatment on Jatenzo.

 

[ajallday]

It makes sense since presumably you are dropping into deep trough overnight on oral T versus steady state on daily injections. This is similar to idea behind using faster acting injectables like Propionate or a blend of TE and TP.

What do your TT/FT levels look like on orals versus daily injections?

What I don't understand is why would you have to get up less to take a piss? I wouldn't think that would change.

I too have been tormented by early mornings awakenings, which are most definitely exacerbated by TRT. Having tried everything, recently I began experimenting with Ipamorelin peptide injection at night with some success. Jury is still out though.

Sermorelin was fantastic for my sleep.

 

[Willyt]

Sermorelin was fantastic for my sleep.

Thanks you no longer use it?

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Interesting about the low carb early days makes sense.
Something I stumbled on recently is cornstarch mixed with water before bedtime. Apparently a well-known solution for people with nocturnal hypoglycemia (non-diabetic). The starch is supposed to release glucose slowly over 5-6 hours. There is a product called Glycosade made of starch designed for especially for this with longer acting duration. The corn starch is much cheaper though.

You might also look into Adrenal Dominance. A small amount of progesterone may help.

 

[ajallday]

Thanks you no longer use it?

No, I am on Tesamorelin now. It's only ok. Also, I am frankly exhausted from jabbing myself so much.

 

[TornCallus29]

Thanks for posting this. The part about still feeling functional despite sleeping badly sounds very familiar honestly

 

[Mastodont]

OP, are you taking twice daily, if so, how long before waking up is the second dose?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

If you like the concept of lower levels overnight to facilitate sleep, and lower hematocrit, daily testosterone propionate injections are a more potent alternative to oral T. You might favor test prop when you need the lower overnight trough but still value the anabolic superiority of injections, or have issues with the supraphysiologic DHT that results from oral T.

Once daily cream in the morning is similar, except that also brings supraphysiologic DHT in most cases.

 

[Vman]

Thanks for posting this. The part about still feeling functional despite sleeping badly sounds very familiar honestly

I would definitely tell anyone that asked me that I felt great on injections. I worked out regularly. I'm in great shape and I have plenty of energy. I just knew my sleep quality was poor and I only felt tired on the rare bad day where I got 3+1 hours of sleep.

OP, are you taking twice daily, if so, how long before waking up is the second dose?

Yes I'm on the highest dose of 400mg twice daily. My first dose is with breakfast at about 8am and my second dose is at lunch around noon. I'm sleeping 11:30pm/midnight - 7:30am without waking in the night. I'm now getting 7.5-8 hours of sleep every night. I thought I felt amazing on injections. I feel even more amazing now. I can't wait to see my labs next week.

If you like the concept of lower levels overnight to facilitate sleep, and lower hematocrit, daily testosterone propionate injections are a more potent alternative to oral T. You might favor test prop when you need the lower overnight trough but still value the anabolic superiority of injections, or have issues with the supraphysiologic DHT that results from oral T.

Once daily cream in the morning is similar, except that also brings supraphysiologic DHT in most cases.

This is actually really interesting to me. I will definitely look into daily propionate injections if the Kyzatrex doesn't work out in the long-term for whatever reason.

I started TRT on twice daily cream and I felt great on it. I actually miss the effects of the ultra high DHT on cream. Unfortunately, I kept developing skin rashes that my doc and I were unable to resolve using prescription steroid creams on. Otherwise, I probably would still be on cream today.